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Reinking Recounts Memories of Her Career on Stage and Screen
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Oct 27, 2022
Earlier this year, Ann was interviewed by BroadwayWorld's Richard Ridge from her home in Arizona. During the hour of storytelling, she opened up about how she fell in love with dance as a young girl, recounted stories of her career on stage and screen, working with Bob Fosse, teaching young dancers across the country, and so much more.
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Welcome, everyone, and thank you for joining me and my very special guest
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She is an award-winning dancer, choreographer, director, and teacher. You know her from such shows as Hippin, Over Here, Chicago, Sweet Charity, Dancing, and Fosse
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Please say hello to Anne Reinking. Hi, how are you? Hi, Anne. First of all, where are you and how are you
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Well, I am in Arizona, Phoenix, Arizona. So it's very, very hot outside. So I'm glad
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actually glad to be inside. And I'm fine. Thank you. So, you know, how have you been getting through, you know, this is our 138th day of quarantine. I
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mean, sometimes it seems like yesterday, sometimes it seems like, you know, a year ago. How are you
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and your husband and your family and your son dealing and handling as we progress through this
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shutdown? I would say, you know, pretty well. However, there are days where we're all a bit
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stir crazy. Sometimes I get a little depressed because there's such lack of activity that you
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don't realize how much you do in a day until you can't do that anymore. You know, so it was real
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good for the first two weeks. I was getting lost at rest, but I'm getting restless now
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Yeah. You know, you were one of the stars, one of the many stars that have gotten involved with
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and joined the Pack podcast, the new spoken word series of Short Place by Eugene Pack
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How did you get involved with the podcast? Well, he just called. I think he knew a friend of mine
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You know, a friend of a friend. And he had gotten my email
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And it sounded like fun. And, you know, it was for a good cause
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This is a tough time. And there are too many people, way too many people, literally suffering and worrying about things that no one should ever worry about
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Like, where's my rent money? How much for food? What doctor do I go to if I don't feel well
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You know, all sorts of things. and especially for dancers, you know, how do I stay in shape
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Because you can't go to class. You know, I wanted to do something
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and I must say that I get nervous before every Zoom or podcast or anything
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but while I'm doing it, I really enjoy it, and I'm grateful for the ability to just do something, you know
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that's constructive, you know. So, and I'm not eating. This play is called Broadway World
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Of course, we're Broadway World. What, like when you read the play, like what went through your mind
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Cause it takes place on a red carpet, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah. Well, I love my part
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I can't remember her name right now, but she was a very silly, over the top sort of woman
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who had a certain splash on Broadway, but it never really stayed
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But she's sort of in that over-the-top overture about expression. And she cracked me up
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So I thought, well, this would be fun to do. I'm fascinated how the virtual world works now because we're all doing this whole thing, like you said, stream yarding or Zooming
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When you recorded this, you were all together on the same screens or something, weren't you, in different parts of the country
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Yeah. It was just like doing a for real live radio session, you know
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where there's maybe one microphone and everybody's going in and out and
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trying not to, oh, you know, you want to pick up on your cues
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but you don't want to sort of top it. It needs, the rhythm's different
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So it was fun. It was fun to kind of relearn something that I had never actually really had
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the privilege of doing, you know, so it was fun. It was fun. What I love about his podcast is that it benefits the Actors Fund and Feeding America
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And I'm sure that's a big reason why you decided to do this. Tell me what those organizations or what this benefiting them means to you, Anne
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Oh, it means everything to me. First of all, when the first time I was ever introduced to the Actors Fund, of course, the Actors Fund benefits
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and I saw 1776 for the first time and for free so that I could see another show while I was doing a show
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I was so moved by it and so just touched because here I was an actor that wasn't making a lot of money
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but at least doing what I loved and wanted to on Broadway
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and I could see another Broadway show that had a major award winner and such a unique take on the signing of the independence
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the Declaration of Independence, which of all topics doesn't seem to be a musical that you would sing and dance to
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But there are no rules to theater. And indeed, you certainly could sing and dance to signing the Declaration of Independence
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there's no story that is not tellable or worthy of being told
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And I learned that all at that one point. So I became very proud of the Actors Fund
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They did so much for us and to help us to get the education we needed
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the inspiration we needed. Just everything was, you don't realize how much you have to know
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until you start trying to know. And I did come to New York as a dancer
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with some knowledge and some expertise. But if it wasn't for the Actors Fund
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I wouldn't have been able to have done as many things as I could have done
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without the availability of the Actors Fund. It's crucial. It also helps actors who are no longer acting
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or performers who are no longer performing that need help and need a place to go if they're ill
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or if they're just at the end of their life. So it's a very important organization that I'm very proud of
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And, of course, Feed America says it all, doesn't it? So it's a good thing to do these things
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especially in such an unprecedented, frightening time. You know, try to stay brave
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And I think that's essential with the Actors Fund is to keep your courage up and to stay encouraged
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So both of them are so worthwhile. I think a lot of people don't understand
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the immense goodness that the Actors Fund does and how far-reaching it is
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So maybe on a situation like this, we start to know. And we'll help us to help ourselves one more time
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Beautiful. Well, the PAC podcast, they put new plays up every Thursday. Yours will be up this Thursday
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which is called Broadway World. And of course, they benefit the Actors Fund and Feeding America
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And just go to the PAC podcast to watch You know the last time I saw you in the flesh was the Cheetah Awards when you and Ben Vereen co that incredible night And what did that night mean to you
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Oh, well, first of all, anything for Cheetah is, you know, a number one
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And I had just so enjoyed that evening. And Ben and I, in rehearsal the day before, we couldn't see because neither of us can see anything without our glasses on
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I'm hard of hearing now. And Ben and I, neither one of us can move very well
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But somehow we realized that we had to address this as if it was, you know, like any other show
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And we really worked hard. We rehearsed. We thought a lot about it
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and it was such a friendly circumstance anyway. It made the ability to have fun in front of everybody totally doable
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And I love Ben. He just cracks me up. Actually, when we finished our rehearsal the day before the actual award
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Ben dropped his script and pages went all over the sidewalk. Neither one of us could stoop down low enough to pick up a piece of paper
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where the two of us were like two pieces of jello holding each other up
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And we started laughing so hard because finally his manager had to get out
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get out of the car and help us pick up these pages. And I think we sort of broke the ice and we said, you know what
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We better be good for Chita tomorrow. So we rehearsed and rehearsed and I must say it paid off because it was so much fun
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It was such a remarkable night. I remember each time you two walked on, you were hilarious
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And I know there was an inside joke going on backstage. Now I know, like you said, I can't see, I can't hear
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Do we bring the script with us? I can't get on my knees anymore
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So we had to represent the old folks. Well, I'll tell you, you did a beautiful job
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That is one of my favorite award shows. And that night was so magical, just so you know that
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Oh, great. Thank you so much. You know, I want to go back to the beginning. Growing up in Seattle, where did your love for dance begin
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In sixth grade, Enetai Elementary School. And Mrs. James, as an assignment, my teacher, said that we had to do a talent show
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And everybody had to do it. So you can either sing or recite a poem or whatever
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And so I went and I wrote a little sketch for myself called Our Big World
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and how many ways you could use a scarf. And it went all right
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But what really was spectacular was Carla Seelander, who was a very precocious dancer and also getting scholarships at age 10 and 11 and 12
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So she did the Sugar Plum Fairy variation from The Nutcracker. she brought her record player plugged it in put the record on and she's got the the crown and the
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pink tutu and the pink tights and you know the pink pointe shoes she just looks so beautiful and
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she put the needle on the record and she did the entire variation and I had never seen
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really good dancing like that that's the first time I saw ballet done really well and I fell in
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love. Absolutely fell in love. I had no other wish for my 11th birthday. That was it. So I sort of
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forced my parents' hands and I said, you got to give me a ballet lesson. So I got one a week for
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a while. And they also gave me a ballet bar in my bedroom so that I could practice. So that's where
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it all started. It was an assignment. That's a great 11th birthday. I know you asked for one
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present and you got a ballet bar in your room yeah that was to boot that's great um you began
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with the san francisco ballet is that true uh i was a scholarship student uh with the ford
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foundation scholarship and uh two uh three consecutive summers two months every summer
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with a total intensive, total immersion program. And I got to watch the company
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I would, you know, be an usher in the night and then a dancer in the day or a student
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I would watch company class at 10 o'clock and then start my two, three classes for the day
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And it was like, it was a dream come true. And I had that for three summers
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And then I had a Joffrey scholarship for the last summer before I went to New York City
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So what got you to New York? Was it Joffrey? Joffrey recommended to me
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he actually guided me in a very, very crucial time. He said, you know, Anne, if you want to dance ballet
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you can, you can have a career. He said, because he'd heard me saying
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and I was always kind of cut up in class and that he somehow enjoyed me
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He said, you have a great personality. You're a good singer, and you pick up things pretty well
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And he said, I think you would just have a lot more fun if you went on Broadway
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And he said, I'm not telling you that to try and ease the fact
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that you canova dance ballet. He said, that's not what I'm saying
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He said, I just think, and he loved Broadway, And he said, I just think you'd be happier and probably more successful
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And it was at a time where I really needed to have somebody, especially of that ilk, basically guide me
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Because my devotion was split in amateur plays and musicals or in amateur ballet, classical ballet
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And I must say it helped me a lot because it stopped me from being a bunhead and a bit of a dance snob
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So, you know, I was more eclectic and therefore my life was happier
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You know, if we're lucky, we have a long life. So we're going to have to like quite a few things in order to get through this life
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And it can't be just one thing. And he was very eclectic himself, as you know, with his company and his whole approach
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You know, he gave Twyla Tharpert a big break and brought ballets from the 30s by Kurt Yost back into everyone's knowledge and repertoire
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He really was a remarkable, you know, patron and, you know, one of the great Diaghileves of our time
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And he just really was a help to many, many people. And he was an amazing help to me
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So I saved up my money. I had $500 at a round trip plane ticket
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And that's how it started. So was your first professional job that tour of Fiddler on the Roof
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Actually, I went to Radio City Music Hall first. At that time, they still had a ballet company
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And that where I learned to buy a trade paper you know backstage or showbiz or variety to know when the auditions are And one of my friends in the dressing room at Radio City was going to what they call a cattle call or an open not equity audition
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And it was 500 people. And I just got it. I was there all day
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And I just fortunately was on my day off. or a week off that you get, you work for four weeks straight through
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and then they gave you a week off. So fortunately it was even on my week off so that I could take the time to
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spend all day auditioning. And I had a wonderful time. It was great
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So that's my second job. And that's how I got my equity card
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which as you know, is very important. Oh yeah. So was that the fiddler tour that went through Arizona
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And is that where you first fell in love with where you live today? That's exactly true
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I was 18 and I visited Phoenix and old Scottsdale was just plain Scottsdale
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So all of this sprawl that's going on now wasn't there. But it just, you know how it is
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Sometimes things just strike an inner chord in you. And I just said to myself, sometime I'm going to come back here
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and had a lot of old bones, hopefully not my family's, but you know
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I think that's great though, to like be on a tour and say, wow, I'm fascinated by this beautiful
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place and you've been to so many places and now you live in this beautiful place in Arizona
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That's a great story. Oh, thank you. Thanks. I know it doesn't happen too often, but I'm very, very glad that it did
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You know, my husband is a sports writer. It was, we're both retired or semi-retired and he was
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reporting on the golf course, which is at the boulders. And, and it's in the middle of summer
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you know, if you're reporting, you always are on off season. So, and he loved it and he said, I just love it here. And I went, really
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And I said, well, I've always had this dream about going to Phoenix when I retire or semi-retire
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And he said, I could do this. So here we are. That's beautiful
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That's gorgeous. You know, many people were supposed to make their Broadway debuts this spring and then the pandemic hit
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And I hope that they all get to make it when the theater and Broadway and the New York theater scene comes back bigger and better than ever
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But, you know, Broadway debuts are magical. They only happened once. Yours was in Cabaret on Broadway
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Do you remember your Broadway debut? How magical was that night for you, Anne
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Oh, it was great. great um and i was working with the hell prince office they're very loyal and so when there was
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an opening they called me because the the um the closing notice was already up on the bulletin board
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and it kept coming going down every thursday but i was rehearsing and learning the show um
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while the well the this you know it just kept going up and coming down and going up and coming
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down. But I did two months on Broadway and that left, led to the dance captain of Cabaret, whose name is Bonnie Walker
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She liked me, liked me, liked me. And as captain for Coco with Catherine Hepburn and Craig Buck by Michael
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Bennett. And she, she did me the favor of pointing me out. She said, that's all I can do
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So then you're on your own, but you won't get lost in the crowd. And that was incredibly fortunate
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And then to have Fiddler, Cabaret, and Coco be your first three musicals is a major education
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because Coco was Alan Lerner and Andre Previn and, of course, you know, Catherine Hepburn
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And so what I learned in a few months via these remarkable masters of their craft was invaluable
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And I liked everybody. You know, you hear all these scary stories about, oh, this person and that person
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I very seldom have I ever met anybody in theater that acts a lot the way, you know, the stereotypical theatrical person, you know, that's very sort of over the top
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and creates a lot of drama and trouble. I never, they're just hardworking, good, good folk
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You know, it's amazing. Those first three jobs that you did. I mean, you learned from the very best, like you said
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Jerome Robbins, Michael Bennett, you know, Ron Field. And my first time with Kander and Ed, and it would just
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and Ron Field's choreography. and the smartness of the show. Yeah, no, I was fortunate
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I was fortunate that my sixth grade teacher said we're going to do a talent show
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I don't know why, but she did, and I'm glad. And then when I did, you know, have to make a decision
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then a brilliant man like Robert Joffrey said, why don't you go in this direction
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And I did. And then my first three musicals were so significant
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And so I was very, very, very lucky. Yeah. It takes time to have luck, too
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I'm glad you gave a big shout out to Bonnie Walker because she's, I always say, dance captains or associates are the unsung heroes of shows
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They keep them fresh. They have their eye out for talent when they'll go to a director or choreographer and say, look at her or look at him
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And then it's like, wow. And I saw a big production of Cabaret that she had done on Long Island
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And so I'm a huge fan of Bonnie Walker. So thank you for giving a big shout out to her, Anne
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Me too. I love her. I heard this. I think it's more, but maybe not because you know Bonnie, so do I
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But Bonnie wrote everything out longhand on, you know, the big yellow legal pads
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And a show usually with all the notes that you did, you know
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even during the run, and she'd put them all in shopping bags, all these legal pads
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and then she'd mark the shopping bag as to which store it was. So she had to teach it again
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She would pull out the shopping bag or bags. Anyway, because she was so good, everybody wanted her
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And this is the lore, the legend, is that she had so many shopping bags
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it didn't fit in her own apartment. So she got a studio apartment so she could put her shopping bags there
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God forbid if there was a fire, can you imagine half of all the knowledge
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I hope she gave her notes to the performing arts, library performing arts
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because I mean, it was valuable information. Occasionally I'd kind of peer over her shoulder
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to see what she's writing and it was good. It was very clear, very good as to what to do
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And I just, wasn't that a dancer for you? It's just, you know, put it in a shopping bag
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and put it in a closet, you know where it is. So I don know if she got a studio but I loved her She was really good at what she did Very clear very you know pristine And she liked good clean dancing and someone who worked hard
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And because that's the way she was. She's a beautiful woman. Yeah
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I love that story. I got to find out what happened. I'll find out what happened to the shopping mall
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That's fine if that's true. Yeah. Well, you know, and then you met the legendary Bob Fosse, for whom you became his protege and muse
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And did you meet at the Pippin audition? Yes. Yeah. It was such a good audition
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I had never been to an audition like that. Because Bob actually got up on the stage and started dancing with us
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and once the ballet combination was done, then he got up on stage
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So there were still many of us, but he started working with us side by side
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and he would say, you know, why don't you try this step? It says the same thing, but I think it's going to look better on you
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Let's give that a shot. And he really was testing, you know, unbeknownst to me
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you know, how well you take notes, how well you work, how well you follow along
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how well you contribute, because with one of the combinations, our steps in isolation, that's where you move one, you know, piece of your body at that time
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they were set. But we were also supposed to pantomime a balloon that we put up into the air
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and then caught and, you know, and then switched hand to hand. And, you know, how are we going to
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do that with this very specific dancing and he would help us along with that you know with the improv
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of the balloon you know you know do you want to take your hat off and catch the balloon
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with your hat how do you want to do so he sprung up enough ideas that
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I just started concentrating we all did and it became very creative and a lot of fun
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and he had a way of picking the fear out of auditioning
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which is a big, because auditioning is almost another craft. You know, you have 20 minutes to show somebody everything you own
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and hopefully then some, and that they should hire you. So when he made it more like actual working
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I did a lot better than I normally do auditioning, and I was grateful for that, and I was having so much fun
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And I got called back. And as I was taking the bus home, I said, gee, even if I don't get this show
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this has been the best day I've ever had. It was just wonderful
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And the singing audition was the same because he wanted the dancers to handle the singing
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So that was a bit touch and go. It was one of the first times that that actually was allowed
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usually you had your singing ensemble and then your dancing ensemble and your principles
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But Bob wanted to keep this very Commedia dell'Art, very small jewel box
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So we were also supposed to handle all the minor parts and the entire singing, the backup
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And so he really worked with us on that to see if we had what it takes
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or that he could mold it enough so that it would sound good. And, you know, that was a great thing as well, because by the time I got the audition, by the time I got the job, I was comfortable with him
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I felt I knew him a little bit and knew what he wanted
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there was so much information and education going back and forth between the creator and the ensemble
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that he broke down all walls, all barriers. So by the time we had our first day of rehearsals, I oddly enough knew what to do
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I knew him well enough that it was comfortable. And that's a great privilege and wonderful luck to be comfortable on your first day of a show
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And a show that I really, really wanted. I loved Mr. Fossey's work
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I loved his work. And I really had a lot of hope that it would work out, and it did
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And I just never have had that kind of experience before in my life
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I have later on, but not before that, where the ensemble was the other star
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You know, they were equally as important as the principal. And I felt that that value helped everybody grow
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And of course, go ahead. I'm sorry. Did he ever tell you maybe later in life why he chose you that day
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Did you ever ask him for Pippin? The one thing he offered was that he said, when I started working with you, he said you could do adagio, you could do fast, quick steps, you could do big jumps, you know, the big stuff
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And that you were you were game. I was game is what he said
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You were just absolutely game for, you know, going for it and and not having any questions
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He said you leave a lot to faith sometimes because I'm not the best person in rehearsal, but when I finally get it, then it's good
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But that whole development part is a little dicey. He said you require a lot of faith, but you also create a tremendous amount of trust as you're working, as I work with you
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So that was a real compliment because trust is so key to any form of creativity
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You have to have faith. You have to have trust and never judge
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If you decide to take the job, then you shouldn't judge. It's your job to make it as good looking as you can so that the choreographer can see, is it because it's not dance well or is it because it needs more work
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What does it need? And that's your job. And it was so clear as to what to do as a performer
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To have, well, when you think about it, there's Jerome Robbins, Michael Bennett, Ron Lewis
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Hell Prince, Fred Ev and Kendra Nebb, then Alan Werner and Michael Bennett
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and then Bob Fosse and Stephen Schwartz. That's a lucky experience because by the time I got to do a principal role, I really was able
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I was right. I had had enough education, enough experience. Sometimes if I get down and think, oh, gee, why didn't I get this or I could have done that
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I just need to look at my resume to see how lucky I have been
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And hopefully I paid all these loans people back, you know, with hard work. But when I look at it, I know that I have had great fortune
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So, and maybe that's why I still love it. Totally. But, you know, then you went on to the Andrew
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Citrus musical over here, which remains one of my favorite musicals. I adored that in the Schubert
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You got to work with a great choreographer, Patricia Birch. And of course, she created that
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incredible show-stopping number, Charlie's Place for you and John Mineo. I mean, what was it like working on that number
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and working with Pat? Oh, Pat was the best. It was Pat who gave me my first principal role
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She saw me in Pippin, and because Bob utilized the ensemble so well
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she wanted me, and she asked me to come in. I had to come in for three consecutive days
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They were almost going to have to pay me, You know, because they were really, when I walked, this is, you know, when you walk on a stage and they're out in the audience in the black darkness
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And she stood up and said, that's her. And she does. She wanted me come heck or high water
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And she's so easy to be with. and her sense of she said you have to love chaos
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and hard work and there was one other motto she had but I love you have to love chaos
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which is true there's a time where you just have to mold something out of all this energy that's not
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put together yet. Every choreographer works differently. And Pat is very organic, which is, I think, one of the reasons why people who are
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not dancers specifically do so well under her guidance. You know, like the brilliant scene in
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Big where they're at Schwartz, you know, and it's Tom Hanks and I can't remember the other actors
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at Jack Orton. Robert Langea. That's it. I'm sure? Anyway, somebody good like that
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You know, on the piano, the big, big piano that's on the floor, and the kids would step
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on it, and it lights up, and you try and make a melody, and they played Chopsticks
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And I said to myself, this is real charm. And once again, it was Patty
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So to tell you, that's how relaxed you can get. So we just experimented every way possible to do a jitterbug
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And each take on it, there was a couple of lifts or steps to take and put over on the side because we're going to use those two steps eventually
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And I had never worked like that to where you just sort of like, well, I was a part of it all with Bob
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but you're really a part of it all with Patty. And it's sort of like, yeah, let's just do some fun, you know
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and let's see what happens. And out of all those different sessions came this really remarkable jitter book
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with, and Johnny and I were the two really trained dancers and everybody else moved well and could do anything, you know
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because they were young and wanted to do anything. And I met, you know, Patty has a great eye
33:32
I met John Travolta, Ray Lou Henner, John Driver. There was another, oh, Janie Sell
33:41
Some wonderful people that came out of over here. And I got to meet the Andrews sisters
33:48
And I got to take my dad out to dinner with Maxine Andrews
33:52
I thought my father was going to faint. because I forget that these were the rock stars of that era
34:00
You know, and my dad just was, and they talked about the war and this and that
34:04
And I knew the Andrews sisters because my dad had all their records
34:09
So it was a really great time. It was fun. And Patty is true
34:14
Yeah, and then they did their little nightclub act at the end. The curtain would come down
34:19
and the curtain would come up, and the Andrews sisters would do three or four of their big numbers, and we were like, oh, my gosh, this is incredible
34:25
It was a real pleasure. And, you know, I mean, these two women, the whole part of the theme
34:37
the theme of the show is that they're looking for a third singer, which turns out to be Janie Sell
34:43
And but their sound is so interesting. They do their own harmonies
34:50
And they represented such a key time and basically in our survival as Americans and survival of democracy
35:01
So the drama that is inherent in that, no matter what comedic value you give to it
35:12
it's still talking about a very serious time in American history and in the world's history
35:18
and it gets to you every night, especially when they sang their hits
35:25
So I really understood an era. A lot of fabulous memories. You know, you garnered your first Tony nomination
35:32
in Good Time Charlie, one of my favorite musicals that played the palace
35:35
It was you as Joan of Arc opposite Joel Grey. Wonderful musical. It must have meant a lot to you moving from a dancer
35:43
I mean, I know you had, you know, you played Maggie in Over Here, but to have really been given a leading role in that show
35:49
What did that mean to you, Anne? Just everything. It really did
35:55
The director, Peter Hunt, I really got along with very well. Everything was crystal clear as to who I was
36:06
We collaborated. There are so many different renditions of Joan of Arc
36:12
what do I want to bring to it as a character, as myself invested in this character
36:21
And then Dennis Nahat, the choreograph from American Ballet Theater, he choreographed this amazing war ballet for me
36:29
where I'm in armor. So there were some significant drawbacks for dancing
36:37
because I'm in armor, but it worked and it was excellent. And then Ona White did all the other choreography
36:45
which I thought was spectacular as well. So to have a part as meaty as Joan of Arc with opposite
36:56
there's just something about Joel and I, we always make a good couple. He's either my husband in Amos
37:02
or my lead in my king in Good Time Charlie. in Good Time Charlie and it was originally called
37:12
Joan and Charlie and it's about their relationship and how he helped him to not be a puppet
37:21
and to be a true king and to win this war that was crucial So yeah that was one of my favorite parts Everybody wants to play a saint And I got to
37:35
Yeah. You know, you then stepped into the role of Cassie in Michael Bennett's A Chorus Line
37:40
And A Chorus Line just celebrated their 45th anniversary. What did your time in that show mean to you, Anne
37:46
Because you had worked with Michael, of course, before then at Bob Avian. Well, I love Michael and Bob
37:52
First of all, I love the show. And it was, I went in two months after it had opened on Broadway, because most of your company went to LA and San Francisco
38:02
So when the curtain went up for us, it was as if we were the original company
38:09
I mean, the screaming and the yelling and the just sheer love was all there
38:16
It was exciting. Michael was wonderful. He changed choreography for me because I danced differently than Donna
38:26
And good choreographers, they loved to tailor. It's their job to make you look good
38:32
And so Michael was very generous in giving me more jumps and more extensions
38:41
whereas, I mean, let me tell you this. Donna was the one who first started to teach me the number for Kathy
38:53
and it's kind of a sort of a fake, sort of a glissade with a susu
38:59
This means nothing to you but everything for a dancer. And then all of a sudden, this big layout with a big head snap
39:06
when she did it my knees buckled and i started to get a little tearful because i'm saying to myself
39:13
i don't think i'm going to be able to do this you know this kind of thing she was so strong
39:18
and so good and um so you know michael said not to worry we're gonna do
39:26
things that are good for you that say the same things um you know he said we're just gonna find
39:33
out what looks good on you and then we'll take it from there and that was a real privilege um and uh
39:40
but you know donna is one of the nicest human beings in the world along with gwen and chita
39:46
that just these women are so beautiful uh and generous and um and i got to work with every one
39:56
of them and donna was couldn't have been nicer and of course donna's soprano and i'm basically
40:02
a tenor. So all that Michael wanted to know was could music in the mirror sound okay in an alto
40:09
voice? And it did. So I got to be Cassie and my dreams came true. That's when I said to myself
40:18
when your dreams come true, you sweat more. You know, she's just, the responsibility is huge. And
40:26
And all the work is very, very hard work, and you have to be very dedicated
40:37
I love that part. The character was such a real dancer, wasn't she
40:47
Just classic dancer thinking, I don't care if I was a principal
40:52
I still want to dance. Can you possibly understand that? I love the line, I want to dance
41:01
Do you want me to say it again? Once you understand, do you want me to say it again
41:05
And that line always got to me because sometimes we express ourselves with our bodies
41:10
and sometimes verbal explanation comes later in our life. And I love that line
41:18
I don't know any other way to say it. Do you want me to say it again? And it's such a dancer line
41:25
but with all the passion. And if you're any good at subtech that comes out with you
41:31
whether you say it or not. So I, I loved it. Yeah
41:36
Well, I was thrilled. I got to see you in that. I had bought another pair of tickets. It was like you and Don Korea
41:41
I was like, Oh my gosh, look at this new cast. That's in, you know
41:45
all my favorites, you know, you then replaced Gwen Verdon, your dear friend as Roxy Hart in Kander and Ebbs, Chicago on Broadway
41:54
you have to talk about Gwen Verdon first of all of her teaching you the ins and outs of Roxy
42:01
because I'm sure she put you into the show with Bob did she? Yes she did she did uh Bob made some
42:07
changes for me which Gwen looked up by when she says can I do that and tell my last show and Bob
42:14
said well sure and so we're all and one time she came up to me said is that an extension which one
42:22
left leg right leg so it's your right leg oh good that's my good leg and uh you know so we were kind
42:29
of you know forming this new roxy you know uh during the monologue uh new new steps that she
42:38
loved and she wanted to do and steps that i loved that i was always dying to do like the joe frisco
42:44
and oh all these wonderful wonderful x's and o's brilliant eccentric steps that came out of
42:52
that when Gwen danced them and Cheetah, they looked quirky but graceful at the same time
42:58
They had a lot of qualities. I was dying to do that language. And then to have Gwen as the..
43:08
Gwen was really a champion, my champion. She liked me a lot and she helped me a lot
43:15
And she was also my boss because Gwen took care of all of Bob's show
43:20
So she has been my boss for umpteen jillion years. And then she allowed me to do cabaret using the style of Bob Fosse
43:31
And the very last number, which is Hot Honey Rag, it says in small print right by the number
43:39
although it says in the style of Bob Fosse, a big print, so that's good
43:42
original choreography by Bob Fosse. And I asked her, could I do the original
43:49
And she said, which original? Mine, yours, Lenora's, Juliet's. You know, and I said, oh, you're right, you're right
43:56
I said, the only one I can remember is mine. She said, oh, sure
44:01
So I think she appreciated that I insisted that it be, you know, they didn't want to have stage by Anne Reinking
44:10
so it was choreographed by Ann Reinking so then I insisted in the style of Bob Fosse
44:16
Because Encore Series, their mission statement is to try and recreate in the spirit of the
44:24
original creators. And so when we went on Broadway, I said, look, if you like the show and think it's
44:31
going to work, you got to do it this way. And they were good. The directors were very good about it
44:36
but I said it has to be in the style of Bob Fosse
44:41
so when I got the Tony I thanked Bob right then and there because it really was his Tony
44:49
but I think Gwen appreciated my honesty and she saw that I really understood Bob very well throughout the years she the one who got me the job to direct Fosse So she been an amazing champion
45:06
And I remember when, and teacher, I remember we're standing on 45th Street
45:15
And at the Schubert is, you know, Chicago. Then right next to it at the Pilt Brothers was Fosse
45:23
and I said, you know, we could do the next theater down. Let's do Fosse II, and then it'll be Fosse, Fosse, Fosse
45:30
And we're laughing, you know. And we were actually, before she died
45:35
we actually did have some, you know, more or less serious conversations about doing a Fosse II
45:42
because the stuff, he did so much, and it was so rich, and it was all good
45:50
I mean, the worst of him was really good, you know. So his really good stuff was great
45:57
So it was a, you know, and Gwen has a photographic memory, literally
46:03
And she doesn't throw anything away. So she has all these pictures
46:07
She's got the costumes she wore. She's got all these notes. She's got all the books that he referred to
46:14
She had all of the history of his work. organized and it was all up here as well
46:23
so there's a real reason why he respected her so much and they were
46:28
best friends I think anybody who would be jealous of that relationship isn't thinking
46:38
wrong because it's so genuine and they both helped each other so
46:43
much and they were each other's champion and talk about privilege to see how they work and what they have done for each other, both as
46:57
people and their integrity, but also their genius. They really were brilliant
47:06
and I got to be a part of that. So yeah, that's kind of nerve-wracking, isn't it? First
47:13
First you take over for Donna McKechnie, that's nerve-wracking. Then you take over for Gwen Verdon, and that's nerve-wracking
47:20
But both those women had a way of just being a great gal
47:27
and one calmed down quickly and realized that these people are exceptional
47:35
and more than generous, very true people. You know, when you were talking about Chicago, you called it cabaret
47:42
I know you meant that when you did it. Oh, I meant Chicago. It's all good, but it's all Cameron and Em
47:46
It's all a combination of everything. Yeah, it's all good stuff. Did you ever think, I mean, Chicago
47:52
I loved Chicago the first time around. Saw it like four times with Gwen, Chita, and Jerry
47:57
Saw Liza. I saw you and Lenora. I mean, I mean, I loved that musical
48:02
It must mean so much to you that first you started this out going to Encores
48:07
not even dreaming that it might even go to Broadway. You're just getting up at Encores
48:11
and now it's the longest running American musical in the history of Broadway
48:15
How proud is that? Well, he's wonderful. The only thing I regret is I wish Bob could have seen how good his work was
48:27
and that it's classic work. It may come from a certain era, but it will never be dated
48:32
And how smart Fosse, Kander, and I were. I'm not even sure if Fred Ebb and John Kander knew how good it was
48:39
when it was the original, but when they saw the encores, which was basically a script
48:47
bare bones set, everybody wears black, that's it. And so you really see the writing, the choreography
48:54
the talent, the performing skills, the brilliant ensemble, and see how good it was, and that it
49:03
was a musical vaudeville. That was their first definition of it. A lot of times people ask me
49:09
did you know when it was originally done how good it was
49:13
And not to sound conceited, but the answer is yes, I did
49:17
So when we had the opportunity for Encores, and Walter Bobby was good enough to ask me
49:25
I said, this is a brilliant show. Walter agreed. I said, I think we've got it
49:30
And also, the moment I saw that set with the band on stage
49:34
in the jury box straight, I went, we're in. I had great confidence and it was just so much fun
49:44
And who knew? Yeah, it's true. I didn't realize a four-day engagement or gig was going to turn into 23, 24 years
49:53
but I'm very happy, very, very happy that it did. It's been a reward
49:58
Spectacular. I want to back up to Danson because you received your second Tony nomination
50:03
Danson remains one of the best nights I've ever spent. I would say definitely top 10, if not top five
50:08
I've ever spent in the theater. So groundbreaking, Fosse. I mean, no book
50:13
I mean, Bob always took risks. I mean, take me back to when you and Bob were together
50:18
How did dancing come about? Okay. Well, we were watching, this is one of the many stories
50:26
because it's a multitude of stories. But we were watching this TV movie about Custer
50:33
you know, The Last Stand. and the madness slash brilliance of this person
50:41
And they start to show a bit of his madness and how much he loved parading
50:48
And it was all done to revolutionary tunes, fife and drum, all of that kind of stuff
50:57
for when Johnny comes marching home and all these beautiful songs that the military marched to and paraded to
51:07
And Bob said, what a great idea. You should just do this big 20-minute number, call it
51:13
and at that point he called it Yankee Doodle Dandy, and then he switched it to Yankee Doodle Disco
51:20
because we did disco dancing to Yankee Doodle Dandy. And he just got in the studio with Kathy Doby and Chris Chadman and myself
51:29
We started working on these revolutionary, you know, fife and drum songs that sprung out of war and tried to inspire people to march into war
51:44
And that was one of them. And then another one was this number got caught
51:52
It was, I can't remember what the title of the number one, but it was Bob had a thing about it
51:58
He said his penthouse or his playboy was really vogue or bizarre because the women were so beautiful
52:08
It was stimulating enough. You didn't need to go beyond, you know, the cost of fashion
52:14
And that what would happen if you were a man who had never seen TV or even heard radio came out of nowhere and you were in the middle of New York City
52:24
So and it didn make it but he started to explore that too And then it just went on and on from there This theme that theme
52:35
Oh, he heard Hot August Night in the summer. And he wanted, there was a little darling
52:42
And he said, this could be a great opening number. And it was
52:46
So he just started building. And one day it happened. Well, it is so groundbreaking and brilliant
52:53
When you do do Fosse too, take the numbers that didn't make it into dancing, which you say were probably showstoppers, you know, adding it to that
53:01
I mean, I just love, and the dancers, I mean, the entire ensemble of dancers that was in that show
53:07
Now, behind me is a picture of you. Is it called a layback? What is that
53:12
It's a layback. Well, you kick as high as you can and you try and get your head back as far as you can
53:19
and our layout or a layback, both work. You know, that was the other idea
53:31
He loved, it's called the famous night, 1936 or 38, the famous Carnegie Hall performance of Sing Sing Sing
53:42
Benny Goodman, Harry James, and those improvs were all genuine improvs. And it was
53:52
I mean, I wasn't a big swing band fan until I heard that
53:57
And then also when I started dancing to it, swing is so much fun to dance to
54:03
I loved it. And, of course, I did a dinner bug. I loved that
54:08
So by the time we started working out Sing, Sing, Sing, I was in love with that kind of musicianship and swing music
54:19
and how much it really turned on the world and the dancing change
54:26
So that was another one where all of a sudden you're realizing, boy, we've got some meat here
54:35
And then another one was just percussion. He asked us, Bob had this big trunk with gloves and tambourines and claves and, you know, sandpaper
54:47
and all this sort of stuff that makes noise. Triangle, tune. And he said, what would we do if there was no music
54:54
And we just did it to percussion. And so that was the start of percussion, one, two, three
55:02
and four. And they just kept growing. But something would attract him, and it was always music
55:12
A lot of people don't know that a lot of the choreography
55:16
to Pippin was originally done in the studio to Harry Nielsen's album, Nielsen Schmielsen
55:26
Like the Charles Manson, oh man, start talking. Charles Manson Trio was done and created on
55:34
come on baby, let the good times roll. And then Steven brilliantly realigned it to glory
55:42
but with that style, Steven Schwartz. So it's interesting. The music has to inspire
55:49
Then he listens to it forever and ever and ever. And then ideas start popping up
55:57
And then we go into the studio. So it's a real practical science to creativity
56:07
You do what you know. You do what inspires you. And then you hope something blossoms out of that
56:14
But you have to start from education and what you know. There's no other way
56:19
There you go. One of my all time dancers is one of my all time favorite shows
56:24
So out of the box to Bob Falsi and all of you. It was absolutely brilliant
56:28
Charity, you got to step into the iconic role of charity, Hope Valentine and Sweet Charity
56:34
Again, I'm sure Gwen taught you as she taught all the charities. I know it's all the ins and outs, especially what happens backstage
56:41
Tell me what it was like working with Gwen and Bob all over again on Charity. Well, it was being back to perfection again
56:48
But I have to also note that there was a period in my life where every woman who really was a great singer, dancer and actress, I had the privilege of taking over for them
56:59
And Debbie Allen, who had been nominated for Charity, she was brilliant
57:04
So I'm saying to myself, you know, I've been so lucky because I study them
57:13
And every dancer, every great dancer, has so much to offer. And in theater and in ballet in particular, the ballerina always passes on what they know
57:28
It's a hands-on craft. You can't really learn the soul and the pathos of it if you just see a video
57:38
So it has to be taught by someone who is in the know
57:44
And with that generosity, I think it's more inherent in dancers to pass on one you know rather than acting or singing
57:52
but you know it's such a physical craft that an art form that you just really
57:59
need to see the body and and and hear the thinking this is what I thought here
58:06
it may help you and I think dancers tend to be more generous because you have to
58:15
pass it on and so you know so the originals teaching it to me Wow you know
58:27
Debbie is Debbie Allen is on stage so I'm watching Debbie and I'm watching
58:32
Gwen and and I'm being taught and then Bob comes in in the afternoon and then
58:39
It's changed to me a little bit of changes here and there
58:44
And it's like going to Harvard every day or Princeton. It just depends on which great dancer I had the privilege of following
58:58
Because that's how I got to be. You can't get good any other way
59:04
You have to. Or at least I can't. And if I hadn't had those remarkable examples, I would like to say I would still be good, but I wouldn't be the dancer I was
59:19
So it's a privilege to have that information passed on
59:28
And yeah, Gwen said, we have to have a Hall's Methylated tab right on this wing
59:38
You see where there's the little wood that holds up the fly there
59:42
He said, you need water and one of those tabs. And stuff like that
59:53
And she said, OK, what you want to do is when you get wet, you have to go into the, you know, because the first thing is
59:59
her into the ledge pond and which is the orchestra pit and they splash water all over you and you
1:00:07
come up like a drowned rat because she says you have like two seconds to get into yet another
1:00:12
black dress and a wood is not wet and she said this is how you do it you know she's feeling
1:00:18
everything and uh she's also the one that said if you button from the bottom up it's faster and
1:00:27
won't have the little you know sometimes when you miss you know and you've got the it doesn't align
1:00:32
properly because the read that's the reason is because you have to do it from the bottom up
1:00:37
it's faster and you won't have that problem and you know and you know put the granny boots
1:00:43
do one side back and forth and back and forth and back and forth then do the other side back
1:00:48
and forth and back and forth and back and forth the threat you know the shoelace she said don't
1:00:52
do one then pick up another do another then pick up the one and do another she said one side done
1:00:57
the other side you know and uh and how to tuck in um my shoelaces so they won't come out you
1:01:06
just put a little bit of water on you know inside the shoe and the lace gets a little wet and it
1:01:14
It won't come out. It'll stick. Yeah. Stuff like that. Use Sobo glue
1:01:22
You know, just wonderful stuff like that. Like Sobo glue is great for keeping your heel in a shoe if you can't have a strap over your ankle
1:01:30
Just monumental help. Yeah. When I spoke to Gwen a lot, Gwen always said it's not about what charity does on stage, what charity does behind the scenes and everything else
1:01:40
So, you know, Bob, I did not know very well. I met him a few times, but Gwen I knew very well
1:01:44
And like I said, I can't believe this hour is almost over. I have two more things I have to ask you about
1:01:49
I know, this is crazy. The film All That Jazz is one of my all-time favorites
1:01:54
I mean, I watch it over and over and over. But here is Bob Fosse casting you as his, you know
1:02:00
love interest to his alter ego in this movie. Was that all surreal when you were making All That Jazz
1:02:08
Well, he changed it just enough. so that I felt comfortable, more comfortable
1:02:15
Also, he said this is a classic. He said the setup, he was
1:02:21
in his own hospital room before he went to have the operation and then after the operation
1:02:27
and he said you know this is a classic setup The only thing that got to change is I have to die and he started writing it from his hospital bed right then and there So by the time it was time to shoot
1:02:42
he had changed just enough so that it could fit a true classical structure
1:02:47
that I was very comfortable with it. Yeah. So it was good
1:02:52
It was fine. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful film. But I just have to ask you quickly about FX's series, Fosse Verne
1:02:59
Did you watch it at all? Did you watch some of it? I watched some of it. I couldn't watch it all
1:03:06
First of all, Sam Rockwell and Michelle Williams are such good actors
1:03:13
I knew that when Bob dies at the end, I couldn't watch it
1:03:17
They're too good and it would be difficult. You know, people make choices, a certain angle on somebody
1:03:27
It wasn't necessarily the Bob I knew, but their performances were good
1:03:34
I understood the choices that they made to make it more dramatic and just more razor's edge
1:03:46
but you know it's you know I didn't want to indulge in it because I have my memory of Bob and Gwen which is stellar and I never met two people
1:04:05
that was they were so much fun they were so good they were good people they were also good at what
1:04:13
they did. And, and, and I couldn't wait to get to work. Most, most dancers will tell you the same
1:04:20
thing. When you work with Bob and Gwen, you cannot wait to get to work. You work harder than you've
1:04:25
ever worked in your life and you don't care. It's great. It's so much fun. You have no idea that
1:04:31
you're working that hard. And, and they were probably, I've worked with beautiful, beautiful
1:04:40
people and they were right up there with them, you know, uh, just, well, you know, to meet someone
1:04:49
who basically you kind of look up to, you know, almost like they're gods and goddesses. And then
1:04:56
when you meet them, sometimes that person can just disappoint you a bit, but they never disappointed
1:05:02
to me, not at all. They were everything that I thought they were when I was watching their work and I was a student They didn disappoint me They were some people you meet and the best of them is the price of the ticket
1:05:21
But with them, no, you got so much more than anything. So I didn't want to see something that was too depressed or too over the top with drug taking and everything else
1:05:35
that I, it's easy to go down that road so I didn't want to see it
1:05:40
And also because Sam and Michelle are so good, they'll do that really well
1:05:45
And everybody's going to think that's the way Bob and Gwen are. And for me, no, they weren't that way
1:05:51
They were incredibly positive, which is why they lasted so long, you know
1:05:58
Beautifully put. I was glad that I kept my own memories. Oh, I know
1:06:03
Me too, totally. So you teach young dancers, you choreograph for dance companies, you do a lot of fundraising for them, you do a lot of stuff
1:06:12
But I want to talk just briefly about that beautiful documentary you made called In My Hands, The Marfan Syndrome
1:06:19
I want to talk about the documentary and what that organization means to you, Anne
1:06:23
Oh, the Marfan Foundation means everything to me. uh martin syndrome is a rare genetic disorder that affects all connective tissue it's a certain
1:06:35
protein we make they don't make enough of it so things that are elastic uh the way tissue behaves
1:06:41
is completely different and connective tissue means everything you've got so it's the glue
1:06:47
that keeps us together so it's a pervasive syndrome uh my son was blind at one point
1:06:55
because their lenses in his eyes dislocated, but they were able to fix that
1:07:01
He had two aortic aneurysms, one on the descending, one on the ascending
1:07:07
They fixed that. So two major heart operations. Then you literally start to collapse
1:07:16
The integrity of our connective tissue is so good. You realize how remarkable we are when you see somebody
1:07:24
who doesn't have that kind of tissue integrity. So he started to collapse on himself
1:07:29
He had severe scoliosis and other like deformities in his ankle. So they had to straighten him out
1:07:37
and they had to go in there twice. So and then four procedures on his right leg And this is the life of Morphin syndrome or can be So I wanted to and they all usually are very tall and angular and they look different And I wanted to do a film about body
1:07:59
image for teenagers or young people that are trying to grow up with Morphin syndrome
1:08:08
and being usually the tallest one in the class, being the one that can't do physical education
1:08:16
because of your heart. All of this kind of stuff that points you out
1:08:21
points the teenager out in the wrong way. So I wanted them to
1:08:25
I wanted to choreograph a piece for them that used the elongated torso and trunk and legs and arms
1:08:35
I said to them, you know, if you were a Giacometti or a Modigliani, you'd be worth millions of dollars
1:08:42
And I told them about Bob. I said, Bob literally was crooked
1:08:49
His legs were slightly bowed and crooked. He was one shoulder higher than the other
1:08:56
And basically he took his alleged things that held him back and he choreographed around them
1:09:04
And she got all that turned in stuff and broken leg and broken doll and all of the sort of busted look that became a very incredible style
1:09:17
And I said, so we're going to go the opposite. You're very long
1:09:21
We're going to capitalize on that. And so at the end, they do their own dance
1:09:27
I couldn't work them like dancers because they have heart issues. So I had to keep it very simple
1:09:33
But I wanted them to see how beautiful their bodies were at a time that that would really benefit them so that they will have more confidence throughout their lives
1:09:46
Well, I'm telling you, it is a beautiful, beautiful documentary. And just so you know, we are out of time, like I said
1:09:54
Oh, dear. I had a glorious time. I had a great time with you
1:09:58
Thank you so much. Listen, everybody tune in on Thursday night at the PAC podcast.org to listen to Ann Reinking's part of her play Broadway World and give money to the Actors Fund and the Marfin Foundation
1:10:14
And I will see you when we are back. Bigger than better. We can all hug each other and everybody and everything like that
1:10:20
Everybody stay safe. Thank you for joining me today
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